Episode #4: Mexican American Interdisciplinary Artist Tamara Santibañez

Episode Summary:

In this episode, I chat with Mexican-American interdisciplinary artist and oral historian Tamara Santibanez. Tamara is a queer and trans artist whose work is rooted in storytelling and the visual language of identity construction, exploring subcultural semiotics and the meanings we make from bodily adornment. Listen to this episode to hear us chat about how their immigrant mother felt about their choice to go into tattooing, why they chose to pursue a Master's in Oral History, and what you should consider before entering the tattooing field.

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Episode Links

🎨 Guest Links: Tamara’s Instagram, Newsletter, and Website

🍊 Host Links: Follow Fabiola on Instagram, Youtube, & TikTok

Topics Covered:

• Growing up in a bicultural household in Athens, GA

• How their family supported creativity and exploration

• Discovering the Chicano/Chicanx Tattoo Style from West Coast tattooers

• Using websites and blogs like lowridertattoo and teen angels magazine to discover the Chicanx Tattoo Style

• Why they felt more compelled and connected with the Chicanx tattoo style versus the traditional American tattoo style

• Dealing with the pressure of their immigrant parents when it came to tattooing

• How they got their mom on their side after getting a tattoo honoring their mom

• Why they were initially attracted to such a male-dominated field as Tattooing

• How they go about collaborating with people who have experienced incarceration

• Their interest in the intersection between the prison system & ppl experiencing incarceration

• Why they are a self-proclaimed prison abolition enthusiast

• How they returned to higher education after taking 6 years to complete her undergrad degree in Printmaking

• Why they believe tattooing is a form of oral history

• How important it is to learn to talk to people and connect with new people as a tattoo artist

• Dealing with imposter syndrome within the Master’s program

• Thinking of artists as bridge builders - a new way of seeing something in the world

• What to consider before entering the tattoo field beyond just illustration

• Revisiting leather landscapes, utopic queer spaces

• How they balance multiple paintings and creative projects

• Technically working on paintings and their creative process

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  00:00:09:22 - 00:00:30:06

  Fabiola Lara

  Hey, friends, you're listening to season two of [Draws in Spanish]. If this is your first time listening, welcome. I'm Fabiola. I'm your host. I'm an illustrator and podcaster based here in Philly and on [Draws in Spanish]. I chat with Latinx visual artists and designers to discuss everything from their identity and culture to their creative process and work.

  00:00:30:14 - 00:00:59:02

  Fabiola Lara

  Today on the show, we have Mexican-American multidisciplinary artist Tamara Santibañez. Tamara is a New York based tattoo artist, writer and oral historian who brings their experience and social justice work to their creative and body modification practice. They believe that the best tattooing happens when it's trauma informed and justice centered. If you want to watch Tamera and I chat today, you can also watch the video version of this episode over on my YouTube channel.

  00:00:59:09 - 00:01:27:18

  Fabiola Lara

  Just search for Draws in Spanish in the YouTube app and it should come up. Or if you rather just click the link in the show notes or whatever is easier for you. Tamara has a fine line black and gray tattoo style that is very much inspired by Chicano traditional tattooing, which originated from the prison system. I'm so excited to talk to them today, so stay tuned to hear us talk all about how they grew up in Georgia, why they chose to go back to school for oral history, and their approach to tattooing and painting.

  00:01:27:29 - 00:01:31:28

  Fabiola Lara

  Okay, let's go, guys. Let's get into the show.

  00:01:36:09 - 00:01:42:03

  Fabiola Lara

  Hi, Tamera. How are you doing? I'm so excited to have you on the show today. What's up with you?

  00:01:42:22 - 00:02:07:07

  Tamara Santibañez

  Hi. I'm so excited to be here too. What's up with me is that it's so hot. I am in Brooklyn and it's probably about 100 degrees. Like, that's not an exaggeration. I'm in my studio right now and there is AC. But I think you, the city over are struggling today. So sweating, trying to get a little work done.

  00:02:07:08 - 00:02:27:10

  Fabiola Lara

  Yes, I feel you. I went out today was 100 and then in on my phone it said like feels like 105. So it's so, so hot. Today I'm in Philly. I don't know if you know that I'm in Philly now, but so yeah, it's just as similarly hot. But okay, so I want listeners to know that Tim and I are friends.

  00:02:27:10 - 00:02:56:12

  Fabiola Lara

  We've met before through a mixture of mutual friends in New York, and even though we've hung out before, we've never really like talked deeply about much just because, you know, when you're out and about, it's not really the scenario. So, so I'm so excited to talk about your work today. One of the first things I want to ask you about to talk to you about is I can't believe you had an interview with Maria Hinojosa from Latino USA.

  00:02:56:12 - 00:03:09:22

  Fabiola Lara

  Wow. Huge congrats to you. And you know, today's interview is going to be a little bit more casual than that, but I hope it's just as like fun for both of us.

  00:03:09:26 - 00:03:32:14

  Tamara Santibañez

  Oh, thank you. So, I mean, I have to say that the interview wasn't with Maria Hinojosa. I was interviewed by someone else that works for Latino USA, which was really wonderful. She's a really wonderful interviewer, and it wasn't until hearing the final episode that I got to hear. I mean, I definitely got a little bit of a thrill hearing Maria Hinojosa say my name.

  00:03:32:14 - 00:03:47:11

  Tamara Santibañez

  I was like, Ooh, longtime listener, first time participant. So, so yeah, that was a really special moment. And I think, you know, my family and my friends who are fans of the show, too, it was really it was really cool to be able to be on it. Yes, that.

  00:03:47:11 - 00:03:57:13

  Fabiola Lara

  Is so exciting. I mean, I think the woman who wrote the actual article, at least for your for your episode, was Alejandro Salazar.

  00:03:57:13 - 00:03:59:21

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yes, that's me. Yeah. Yeah.

  00:03:59:21 - 00:04:22:18

  Fabiola Lara

  So I'm assuming that's who I interviewed. Yeah. Amazing shout out to that. Of course. I listened to it. Of course. And so I'm excited. Even more pumped to talk to you today. So I just wanted to start things off with a little bit about like your upbringing and your home life. So can you give us a picture of where you grew up just like what that what that scenario was like?

  00:04:22:18 - 00:04:33:03

  Fabiola Lara

  Because I feel like that's always helpful for people who want to be tattoo artist, want to be, have a creative career to kind of like know that there's people from all different backgrounds going into it, you know?

  00:04:34:15 - 00:04:59:22

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, definitely. So I guess to give you a little bit of background, my mom is an immigrant from Mexico, my dad is an American. So my mom immigrated when they got married and my dad is a professor. So we lived in a couple of different college towns when I was really young when my parents were still together. So we ended up in Athens, Georgia, which is a college town.

  00:04:59:22 - 00:05:29:20

  Tamara Santibañez

  The University of Georgia is there, and we stayed there after my parents divorced. So I was pretty young when that happened. And then after that, I grew up with my mom, which was really wonderful. She's a really hard working woman providing for three kids. And we did a lot of I mean, I feel really fortunate to have grown up in a in a household that was very proud of our culture and that was really representative.

  00:05:29:20 - 00:06:00:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  And in our daily life, whether it was like the foods that we were cooking or, you know, being a Spanish speaking household and making sure that we had family visiting or going to visit family in Mexico as much as we could, so that I am really grateful for. And other than that, I mean, I do feel like I grew up in a family that really supported creativity and creative explorations and yeah, definitely I love to draw since I was a really young kid, I love to read since I was a really young kid.

  00:06:00:15 - 00:06:04:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so that was a big part of my life from early childhood.

  00:06:04:16 - 00:06:22:16

  Fabiola Lara

  Amazing. I love that. Like you know, I don't love that your mom was a single mom. Like, obviously that, you know, it's tough, but I also had a single mom. So in that case, I love it because I'm like, yes, we're like, you know, raised by strong women. That's always like has a really huge influence in what you do.

  00:06:22:16 - 00:06:41:01

  Fabiola Lara

  So I love that. And then can you tell me about like what baby Tamra was drawing was in to? Because I feel like, you know, I know who you are now. I know like the kind of work that you're putting out now. But I'm just a little curious, like what those first influences were or like interests.

  00:06:42:01 - 00:06:53:18

  Tamara Santibañez

  Well, I think like most kids, we watched a lot of Disney. We watched a lot of animated things. So the first things I can really remember drawing were like mermaids and princesses.

  00:06:54:12 - 00:06:56:27

  Tamara Santibañez

  Animals, things like that.

  00:06:57:22 - 00:07:18:16

  Tamara Santibañez

  Oh, yeah, for sure. I know. I wonder if I saw my mom. I'm sure my my mom still has that kind of stuff around. And then and then I think, you know, as you get older, you think that the measure of being a good artist is being able to draw representation or draw from life. So trying to do like still lives or trying to do portraits of my friends and doing like life, drawing, sketching.

  00:07:18:16 - 00:07:20:24

  Tamara Santibañez

  I was doing a lot of that for sure.

  00:07:21:05 - 00:07:41:05

  Fabiola Lara

  Oh, I love that. I feel like, you know, it's kind of universal of an exterior and that I love it so much because it's so like innocent, like pre trying to make anything out of it. Just like trying to like draw what you think is cool is such a like genuine phase. You're just like, Yeah, this is freaking cool.

  00:07:41:06 - 00:08:00:27

  Fabiola Lara

  I love it. Okay. And then so you grew up in Athens, Georgia, and you had your your Mexican mom. How did you kind of fall into kind of this influence of Chicano TED? I don't know. I actually want to ask you, should I say Chicano? Chicano, I I'm not sure.

  00:08:01:04 - 00:08:26:21

  Tamara Santibañez

  I mean, I think you could say either. I think you can say either one personally. I think depending on how specific you want to be about gender inclusivity. But yeah, I mean, I think that there were so many of those like there's so many images of Chicano art that are so like just in the canon and in that kind of like there's like a really familiar visual lexicon.

  00:08:26:21 - 00:08:53:12

  Tamara Santibañez

  And I think that familiarity is part of why it resonates with people so deeply. It's because you're like, Oh my God, I grew up seeing that. So like, I have such deep, early memories of this kind of imagery, whether it's like a calendar that you hang on the wall from the local Mexican restaurant or whether it's like, I like the laundromat would give out calendars that had like the, you know, some like really beautiful classical illustrations or like going to the market.

  00:08:53:12 - 00:09:18:12

  Tamara Santibañez

  And they have like the sticker vending machine that has like car decals that's like smile now, card later or like the packaging on foods, you know, like it's so immersed, those are presentations. And so that's definitely, I think the early memories of it. I didn't grow up seeing a lot of tattoos where I lived necessarily, but then, you know, I was.

  00:09:18:12 - 00:09:30:05

  Fabiola Lara

  Curious about just like, yeah, I know you grew up in Athens, Georgia. Like, how, how were you exposed posed to Chicano tattoo art and that imagery being in Athens, Georgia?

  00:09:31:09 - 00:09:56:04

  Tamara Santibañez

  I would say maybe not to the tattooing specifically at that point. I got a lot more involved in tattoo culture when I was, you know, when I was a teenager, I went to college when I was 17 and I was living in Savannah, Georgia, had a lot of friends that worked at tattoo shops and friends who were getting tattooed and like working as assistants and learning to tattoo at that time a lot of friends who were in bands.

  00:09:56:15 - 00:10:22:19

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so, I mean, I was so into punk culture and like heavy metal culture and tattooing was a huge part of that because it was so subcultural. I mean, tattooing is very mainstream now, like all different kinds of people have tattoos, but at that time and in that place specifically, punk tattooing was so exciting and, and that was kind of what a lot of the people who I knew in that world were doing.

  00:10:22:19 - 00:10:48:22

  Tamara Santibañez

  So they were like played in bands were also learning to tattoo or they were tattoo artists, but they were always of all the shows and so and yeah, I would say it was more when I moved to New York and started working tattoo shops that I started to really see a wider range of tattoo art and started to connect with the more West Coast style.

  00:10:49:09 - 00:11:14:13

  Fabiola Lara

  Yeah. Was there a moment where okay, so you're like seeing all this, you know, I'm going to say general tattoo culture at the time. Was there a point where you were exposed to specifically Chicano tattoo style that then you were like, Oh, I want I want to know more about that? Or did you know, like I'm just curious how you just were exposed to that specific style once you were already interested in tattooing?

  00:11:15:08 - 00:11:43:17

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah. I mean, I think I would I had seen examples of that tattooing, but I think I didn't quite put it together that it was like such a specific style in the tattoo world, like in the professional tattoo industry because it's so prevalent on the West Coast. But I grew up in the southeast, so so you know, it was more, I think once I was in a tattoo space, I mean, there wasn't that many representations of it even in the tattoo shop that I was working in.

  00:11:44:10 - 00:12:05:20

  Tamara Santibañez

  And partially it was like friends that I had who were from the West Coast and had tattooed on the West Coast that were like, Oh, like if you like this, check this other artist out, or if you like this, like you'll love this. So like if you're interested in drawing this kind of strip, like you should be looking at these people because, you know, the Internet was not what it is now like.

  00:12:05:20 - 00:12:42:03

  Tamara Santibañez

  Social media wasn't what it is now like now, I think because of those things, that style house spread so and exploded globally. So you have like people in Italy that are doing juvenile style tattooing. You have people in Japan that are doing that kind of style tattooing and that back then, that was before Instagram, before those things. So I remember I would be following like all of the individual websites and like individual blogs, like I would always look at the Lowrider Tattoo blog and read like about Jose Lopez's work and you kind of had to like really know about the individual things, even like things like Teen Angel's Magazine, you know, like wasn't a collectible

  00:12:42:09 - 00:12:57:27

  Tamara Santibañez

  then. So you could still find them really inexpensively. And so I, you know, I started collecting things like that in my just I'm a researcher, too, and a collector. So I was like, if I had like a Teen Angels magazine, I was like, oh, let me just.

  00:12:57:27 - 00:13:00:22

  Fabiola Lara

  Like, like follow other teaching all the way through.

  00:13:00:27 - 00:13:46:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, exactly. And just, you know, making more and more friends that were that were more based in California or like we're from the West Coast and we're more involved. And so, yeah, kind of like it's starting to work out in L.A. myself and feeling very embrace and feeling very, very welcomed. But I remember feeling really distinctly like, Oh, this is so cool because this is a really specifically Mexican-American tattoo culture and that it was just nice to have a personal connection with that imagery and that history and, and have it be repeating images that were so familiar from my childhood in tattooing specifically because, you know, tattoos like traditional Americana wasn't really I just didn't

  00:13:46:09 - 00:13:47:18

  Tamara Santibañez

  have a personal connection with.

  00:13:48:12 - 00:14:11:18

  Fabiola Lara

  So you mentioned this for a split second. You know, like tattooing is such a male dominated field and it has to be so hard to kind of make a space for yourself in that industry and you've been able to do it. So my question for you is how has it been for you to work in a male dominated space and seen it evolve over the years?

  00:14:11:18 - 00:14:18:18

  Fabiola Lara

  Because I know you've been tattooing now for like over 13 years, so how has it been for you?

  00:14:18:18 - 00:14:48:07

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I have a lot of complicated feelings about it and tattooing has changed a lot in that time. I mean, when I first came into the industry, my experience sort of politically was as a woman, but I'm a non-binary person and a gender non-conforming person and that, you know, coming out as that has also been different and been a part of, I think, the greater shift in the culture to be more inclusive.

  00:14:48:07 - 00:15:17:17

  Tamara Santibañez

  Because when I got into tattooing I just didn't see a lot of like know even women, let alone trans and non-binary people and you know, not openly queer people either necessarily. And so I, I think at the time I was really in some ways, unbeknownst to me, like attracted to the masculinity in that culture because it was the expectation was that you would assimilate to that.

  00:15:17:17 - 00:15:47:19

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so in some ways it gave me permission to access the more masculine aspects of my myself as a trans person and and I didn't really realize at the time that that's why that felt that way to me, or that's why I was attracted to like punk or metal or goth or tattooing or all these cultures that kind of enabled different expressions of femininity or a woman ness.

  00:15:47:19 - 00:16:15:21

  Tamara Santibañez

  And I think at the time that's what I thought it was, was me kind of like budding up against the what was allowed in woman ness and not being like, actually, I was not a woman. But now tattooing is so much more expansive in terms of representation and in terms of who is who is allowed and who is able to really shine.

  00:16:15:21 - 00:16:37:24

  Tamara Santibañez

  And I think that that has to do with a few things. I think it has to do with the Internet first. First of all, you know, people can advertise themselves and build a clientele and not be so reliant on tattoo shops to be bringing them clients. People can kind of seek out individual artists, I think is more how people are connecting with with people to be tattooed by.

  00:16:37:24 - 00:17:13:01

  Tamara Santibañez

  And I think people are also more intentional about seeking out artists who whose identity they resonate with. So some people are like, I really do want to go to a woman artist or I really want to I really do want to go to like another trans person. And that is really cool. There's so many options now because it is a different experience for sure and as not to be gender essentialist about it, because I also get really frustrated by those things where people are like, Oh, a woman artist is inherently a safer, kinder person because there's like sexism and gender bias inherent in that too.

  00:17:14:08 - 00:17:37:14

  Tamara Santibañez

  But I think it's cool to be able to go to artists who are so vocal and so specific about just having an expansive understanding of the body and having a really clear firsthand experience of what it means to try to align your physical expression with your understanding of yourself and how high the stakes can be around that and how political that can be.

  00:17:38:02 - 00:18:04:25

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so that's what's exciting for me about tattooing. And I think also it makes space for me to like take a step back because when there's not a lot of somebody being represented, it puts a lot of pressure on the people who are being able to be in those spaces. And, and now it's cool to be like, Oh, I'm not the only, the only one of X, Y, Z tattooing in tattooing or in New York or what have you.

  00:18:04:25 - 00:18:13:20

  Tamara Santibañez

  And be like there are so many other people that you can go to. You have so many choices, you have so many options. And that is something that I feel really good about.

  00:18:13:26 - 00:18:41:28

  Fabiola Lara

  Yes, I think that's so beautiful. I feel like it's really hard because since you entered tattooing when maybe it was a little bit more male dominated and now you've kind of carved your own lane, you're seeing other people who also identify as non-binary or just have different gender identities, enter the field in a confident way. And I think, like you said, it's just like really cool to see because it welcomes other people to join, right?

  00:18:41:28 - 00:19:07:24

  Fabiola Lara

  It becomes less exclusionary. My question for you is actually like so I don't have any tattoos, right? So but I always thought of tattooing as like just like for esthetics or like I like this thing, so I'm going to put it on my body or I feel passionate about it, I'm going to put it on my body. But I think you have a really beautiful stance on tattooing beyond esthetics, which it can often be just reduced to.

  00:19:07:24 - 00:19:18:28

  Fabiola Lara

  So what do you think the power of tattooing is when it comes to self-expression and self reflection? And because I know that you have like a really wonderful takes on this and I just want to hear more about it.

  00:19:20:01 - 00:19:39:02

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much I could say about this. It's like, where do I start? But I mean, the the phrase that I always refer to is sort of the political, political potential of tattooing, because I think it's really important to it, to to culture and to political systems, because those are things that we're impacted by.

  00:19:39:02 - 00:20:17:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  We move through the world every single day. You know, I'm thinking about the current waves of, like, anti-trans legislation. I'm thinking about the overturning Roe versus Wade. You know, there's all of these things, whether they're legal systems or belief systems or ways of being socialized that tell you how you can and cannot exist in the world, in your in your body and attempt to control your body and and I think the tattooing is a really powerful space where you get to make choices about your body and you get to have agency and you get to do these, these really permanent things that can shift how you exist and can shift how you exist with yourself

  00:20:17:21 - 00:20:56:15

  Tamara Santibañez

  and in relationship to yourself. And you know, just to name a few examples that can look like, you know, people who have struggled with disordered eating, it can be really significant and empowering when it comes to body dysmorphia to put a beautiful piece of artwork on a part of your body that you might have had a really complicated relationship to and get to appreciate the artistry and appreciate it as something beautiful and really shift that relationship when it comes to tattooing in prison, for example, people, you know, you're in the space of controlling what you can wear when you sleep, when you eat, when you can be outside and having this thing that is within

  00:20:56:15 - 00:21:21:26

  Tamara Santibañez

  your control to, you know, it's something that the state can't take away from you. They can take away like your photos of your family. They can take away your sneakers, but they can't take away your tattoos. That's something I hear people say over and over again. It's like if you are experiencing housing instability or you're having to relocate or migrate, you know, tattoos or something that can travel with you and remind you of home and be this very grounding thing about who you are and your identity and where you've been in your life.

  00:21:22:21 - 00:22:03:25

  Tamara Santibañez

  You know, even when it comes to overcoming trauma, you know, for people who are survivors of of trauma or different kinds or of sexual assault or interpersonal violence, tattooing can be the intervention that helps you reclaim a sense of agency and a sense of control. And there's there's just so, so much there that people engage with, whether consciously or unconsciously and in a lot of my work, you know, in the workshops that I've taught in the book that I've written, is in trying to illuminate those things and bring people's attention to them, because tattooing isn't just it can be, you know, putting a beautiful image on your skin.

  00:22:03:25 - 00:22:14:16

  Tamara Santibañez

  And again, it can be just that, but it can also touch all of these other ways of living, all of these other ways of existing, all of these other systems. And I think that that's so important for tattoo artists to have a consciousness around.

  00:22:14:21 - 00:22:38:06

  Fabiola Lara

  I am just mind blown because when you say it, I'm like, Oh yeah, of course. Like, I had never thought of it that way. And obviously like because I'm not immersed in it, I just like, I don't have, I've never had the, the, like kind of the moment to reflect on it. But when you talk about it, it just makes so much sense and kind of really paints tattooing in a completely different light for me.

  00:22:38:29 - 00:22:57:03

  Fabiola Lara

  Obviously, like, you know, tattooing is amazing and I love to see it when it happens, but taking it beyond just like symbolism, which I think is like maybe the thing that people most gravitate towards is like, oh, you, this happened. So I got a symbol of this to represent it, but it can be that and so much more.

  00:22:57:03 - 00:23:22:16

  Fabiola Lara

  Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but I love how you you really kind of go the extra mile to like teach people like me about it and also just like speak up about all the different ways that tattooing can be really empowering in all these different scenarios, as simple or as elaborate, right? So I just think that's like, Tamara, you're so cool.

  00:23:22:16 - 00:23:47:28

  Fabiola Lara

  So and that's all I have to say on that. But I know you work allows people who are incarcerated and in relation to tattooing and in your work as an oral historian. So that to me is really intimidating, not because of the people but because of the systems, right? So like working within the prison system and working in collaboration with people who are incarcerated seems like a really big hurdle.

  00:23:48:17 - 00:24:01:06

  Fabiola Lara

  So can you tell me about one of your recent projects? I read all about it, but I don't have the name written down here. So if you can introduce that project and then tell me like how you go about collaborating with people who are incarcerated.

  00:24:02:20 - 00:24:32:23

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah. So the recent project that I did is called I heard it before I Ever Saw It, and it is just a collection of audio pieces from oral histories I did with people who have experiences at the intersection of tattooing and in the prison system. So everyone that I interviewed is not currently incarcerated. They have been at some point in their lives and that was an important logistical choice because like you said, working with those systems is really challenging and communication is really limited very by design.

  00:24:33:05 - 00:24:54:18

  Tamara Santibañez

  You know, prison is meant to isolate people and every system around access and people who are locked up is also, you know, often privatized for profit. So if you like to send an email paying for phone calls and traveling 2 hours to visit somebody in person like things. There's so many things that are not allowed, like cameras, recording cell phones.

  00:24:54:24 - 00:25:20:00

  Tamara Santibañez

  So those are all really difficult systems to navigate. But with the recent project, like I said, it is with people who have experienced incarceration. And so we were able to just record really, you know, in the free world. And the and I think it's such an important and such a rich site to look at resistance to state mechanisms of control.

  00:25:21:12 - 00:25:44:29

  Tamara Santibañez

  And people talked about that. So much of the interviews that I that I did with them, you know, for example, one person had it was a tattoo artist who went to prison. And then his the conditions of his release didn't allow him to work at a tattoo shop because his his P.O. was like, oh, that's all criminals, criminals and gang members or something like that is what she said.

  00:25:44:29 - 00:25:55:06

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so he had to get a different job, you know, working as a as a in a bakery or. Yeah, I mean, I.

  00:25:55:15 - 00:25:58:24

  Fabiola Lara

  Would say bakers aren't, aren't criminals, you know.

  00:25:59:16 - 00:26:27:23

  Tamara Santibañez

  Well, I mean, it's also like there's I mean, there's so much to unpack there, right? Like this definition of somebody being being a criminal, like the way that certain professions are criminalized. But but yeah, like one of the interviewees is, is a tattoo artist who owns a shop in Chicago. Faith Phillips Who owns which me and she is a trans woman who learned how to tattoo in prison and then went on to open that landmark space in Chicago.

  00:26:28:15 - 00:26:56:14

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so and she speaks really powerfully about being able to help people move through these experiences on the inside. You know, she tells she tells one story about tattooing a man's grandmother's name on him when she had passed away, and it was his last living relative that he had in the outside world. And so helping him sort of process that, but really unique kind of grief and mourning and being able to witness that.

  00:26:57:14 - 00:27:22:23

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so there's I mean, I've done a few projects at that intersection and it's one that I feel really passionate about documenting and exploring, especially because it's also underrepresented in the Dutch, you know, sort of like professional tattoo world. And there's a lot of discrimination and a lot of stigma that still exists. Ah so it's yeah, it's a aspect that I feel really privileged and honored to be documenting.

  00:27:23:10 - 00:27:49:03

  Fabiola Lara

  How, how do you feel like going back to school for oral history has influenced your kind of creative career? Like in what ways do you think it's, it's helped you like level up your work? I feel, you know, from an outside perspective I can see the correlation in in the subject matter that you're exploring. But I'm just curious, like what how you feel it's benefited you because your work is already so amazing.

  00:27:49:03 - 00:28:20:00

  Fabiola Lara

  I'm just like curious how you're using this kind of new skill set before we keep on going with this amazing conversation, I need to take a little break to remind you on the drawers in Spanish Patrimoine, we have an exclusive Discord Community, extended episodes of every single episode of season two and even a monthly sticker club. So if you want to be a part of all that and so much more, become a patron of drawers in Spanish by heading over to Patreon dot com slash drawers in Spanish.

  00:28:20:00 - 00:28:42:00

  Fabiola Lara

  Now, if you don't have the means to join the patriarchy, I totally understand and no pressure. But remember, you can support the show for free by subscribing to the show on YouTube, following the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and just simply sharing an episode with your friends goes a long, long way. So thank you again for listening.

  00:28:42:00 - 00:28:45:02

  Fabiola Lara

  Thank you for your support. Now let's get back to the show.

  00:28:46:27 - 00:28:58:19

  Tamara Santibañez

  Well, I guess I don't necessarily feel like I went back to school with my art practice at the forefront of my mind. You know, I really wasn't.

  00:28:59:01 - 00:29:03:13

  Fabiola Lara

  I think that's so cool. I love that because I think people do think they have to do it that way.

  00:29:03:19 - 00:29:33:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah. I mean, I was just interested in expanding. I was interested in tying together all of the things that I was already doing and interested in having tools to maybe find new connections that I hadn't had before. You know, oral history does feel like it kind of underpins everything else that I'm doing in a way that maybe wasn't visible before, but I hope is more visible now and and I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to bring that into my art practice, to tell you the truth.

  00:29:33:09 - 00:30:00:07

  Tamara Santibañez

  I mean, it feels like a part of my practice in a really deep way, but I am still thinking about and experimenting with visual ways of mapping, listening, ways to bring sound and sound installation into the exhibiting work and into sculptural work and how to kind of hold those in to this more organic whole. And yeah, I mean, it's very new to me.

  00:30:00:07 - 00:30:19:17

  Tamara Santibañez

  I just finished this program. I'm still finishing my thesis work, so I'm really excited to finish this big project. And then just get to be a little more loose in how I think about it. But I will say that I, as much as I love to be immersed in this very academic, well, that's a really easy way to say it.

  00:30:19:17 - 00:30:53:17

  Tamara Santibañez

  Like, I really enjoyed being in this academic setting because it was so foreign to me and it was really challenging in ways that I hadn't experienced before. I also felt a lot of imposter syndrome and also felt like I was craving conversations with artists because there weren't as many visual artists in this program. And I was having a lot of I was having a hard time figuring out like, okay, how do I use this new method, this new approach in storytelling?

  00:30:54:13 - 00:30:58:20

  Tamara Santibañez

  Like, what? What visuals can come from this? And.

  00:31:00:05 - 00:31:28:15

  Fabiola Lara

  And so you're in like really new territory, right? Like, few people are working on the subject matter, nonetheless trying to, like thoughtfully incorporate oral history, not just like storytelling in a really, really like particular way and a powerful way. So I totally understand how you could feel imposter syndrome being kind of like in this academic scenario with people who maybe are like, I don't know, I'm just going to assume like a lot of writers or something.

  00:31:29:09 - 00:31:51:27

  Fabiola Lara

  And so I can see how you feel like the odd one out. But looking for me as an outsider, looking at you and the work that you're doing, it just seems like such a kind of like obvious benefit to your work. Just because of the messaging and just being and even to your craft as a tattoo artist, you know, like in everyday practice, talking to people like your clients and stuff.

  00:31:51:27 - 00:32:13:09

  Fabiola Lara

  So I totally can see how it feels odd, but I'm really excited to see how it can like how you're going to incorporate it because I think you're just going to do like really powerful, even more powerful stuff incorporating visuals in a way that a lot of other people can't write. Like, they only have the they only have the storytelling.

  00:32:13:09 - 00:32:19:06

  Fabiola Lara

  They don't have maybe the visuals that you as an artist can like just create out of thin air.

  00:32:19:23 - 00:32:56:13

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, it was really it was so valuable to be in a space with people who have really different disciplines and really different experience and perspectives. And what can I what can I learn from, like, a journalistic approach, for example, what can I learn from like a fiction writer approach? What can I learn from this, like, theory approach? But I just finished a residency at ECR in Wisconsin and it was actually so, so generative to be immersed in this group of artists just after finishing this MFA program, because it was a really grounding reminder to be like, Oh yeah, this is what the work of art artist is.

  00:32:56:13 - 00:33:22:26

  Tamara Santibañez

  It's to have all of these different ways of processing the world, of thinking, of understanding information, of communicating. It's not just about writing a paper, it's not just about recording an interview, which is like those are ingredients, but also being like, okay, I can make a painting about this, I can make a sculpture of this, I can make a video projection of this, I can make a Crayola crown like scribble of this.

  00:33:22:26 - 00:33:49:01

  Tamara Santibañez

  And those are all different ways of like trying to understand something and trying to help other people see something. Because I always think about artists as bridge builders or it's not my job as an artist to tell you what to think, but hopefully it's my job to build a new way of seeing something, or like a new way of asking a question or a new way of seeing that can help you come to new conclusions or illuminate something that I think needs to be illuminated.

  00:33:49:01 - 00:33:55:13

  Tamara Santibañez

  And and I feel really grateful to, just like, have more tools at my disposal to do that.

  00:33:55:29 - 00:34:17:13

  Fabiola Lara

  Yes, that's yeah, that's what I mean. Like, I think it's so neat that you went for that tool as opposed to like a visual art tool because you already have such a understanding of your, of your own work. And like, you know, I know that you've worked in sculpture. You do your paintings, which if you're watching on YouTube, you can see a little preview of her paintings in the background of their paintings in the background.

  00:34:18:05 - 00:34:35:22

  Fabiola Lara

  But you work across so many different mediums that I think it's just like so neat to go for oral history and I'm just so interested to see how you're going to tie that into the rest of your work is I think it's going to be really powerful and I think it's really interesting that like is oral history, professional podcasting.

  00:34:35:22 - 00:34:39:05

  Fabiola Lara

  Like I'm like this should be reverse camera. But anyway.

  00:34:40:08 - 00:35:08:08

  Tamara Santibañez

  I oral history is such a cool field because from what I can tell as a newcomer to it, it's also it's also evolving really rapidly and it's a pretty new I mean, oral, oral storytelling has existed as long as people have existed. And that oral history as an academic kind of formal, formally defined academic discipline is relatively new and kind of came about through the interaction of recording and recording audio.

  00:35:08:17 - 00:35:33:05

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so it seems like it seems bound to change really rapidly because of changes in technology, because of, for example, the pandemic like or remote recording we're doing now is so much more common. And so there's a lot of really rapid expansion and, and redefinition of oral history as a field that I can see as somebody who's new to it.

  00:35:33:05 - 00:35:55:00

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so it feels exciting to be a part of this genre when it is in flux, like someone is still being defined and getting to be a part of figuring out what that looks like and learning from people who have been practicing it in really traditional ways, but also practicing in really experimental ways and redefining what oral history even even means and how it can be used.

  00:35:56:06 - 00:36:01:29

  Tamara Santibañez

  And yeah, I mean, podcasting is also really adjacent to and part of oral history, too.

  00:36:02:10 - 00:36:10:28

  Fabiola Lara

  Making oral history right here, right now. But Tamara, are you going to launch a clubhouse?

  00:36:10:28 - 00:36:11:25

  Fabiola Lara

  Isn't that what it was called?

  00:36:11:25 - 00:36:14:04

  Fabiola Lara

  Clubhouse, that app where everything's like live?

  00:36:14:09 - 00:36:15:15

  Tamara Santibañez

  Oh, no.

  00:36:15:16 - 00:36:39:28

  Fabiola Lara

  And so that was a lighthearted oral history joke for you. Okay. Getting back to tattooing, I wanted to ask you if you have any advice for those interested in getting into tattooing now after listening to you, people are like, I want to get into it. I just know many things have changed since you got started and feel like you have a wealth of knowledge.

  00:36:39:28 - 00:36:43:22

  Fabiola Lara

  So I'm just wondering if you have just a couple tidbits of advice.

  00:36:44:12 - 00:37:02:29

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, I do. I don't know if I do. I mean, like you said, it's changed so much since I got into it. Sometimes I feel like I don't even have a sense of how the industry is working right now. I just kind of like stay in my little bubble and do my work with my clients and don't really know what's up with it outside of that.

  00:37:04:19 - 00:37:30:14

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, I had somebody asked me the other day if I thought that tattooing was oversaturated and if it was even worth getting into tattooing right now, which I think is a really good question to be asking. And I think I would encourage people who are interested in tattooing to think about what they can bring to the field, to really try to take a good look at the field as it has existed and as it exists now.

  00:37:31:06 - 00:37:53:10

  Tamara Santibañez

  And think about what your place in it might be. You know, if you are only in it because you want to make money doing your illustrations. I don't think there's enough reason, frankly, because there is so much to it beyond expressing your own artistry. It's really collaborative. It's really customer and client base. It's really about communication, it's really about relationship building, it's really about trust building.

  00:37:53:18 - 00:37:58:00

  Tamara Santibañez

  And that's something that I that I hope people can really see in it.

  00:37:58:00 - 00:38:16:02

  Fabiola Lara

  Yeah, beyond just like a practice, I do see tattooing as like a really big part of it as a service and as a service provider you have a lot of responsibility just like any, any other service provider. And I think people can underestimate that by just being like like you said, I want to get my drawings out there?

  00:38:16:02 - 00:38:26:28

  Fabiola Lara

  But that's just like the beginning. Just that's what's on the surface. But I also want to plug your new tattooing advice newsletter.

  00:38:27:12 - 00:38:29:12

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

  00:38:29:19 - 00:38:53:07

  Fabiola Lara

  In Search of my body, a tattoo advice column for artists and clients. So even though, you know, on the spot, it's like, what advice do you have? You know, it's kind of like too broad of a question. But I know you have amazing advice on there. So if you want direct advice from Tamara, go ahead and subscribe to their newsletter, which I read the first one and it's really valuable on like how to find community.

  00:38:53:07 - 00:38:54:12

  Fabiola Lara

  So there's that.

  00:38:54:27 - 00:38:59:26

  Tamara Santibañez

  Oh, thank you. It's been so fun. It's. It's so fun to do the newsletter. Yeah.

  00:38:59:26 - 00:39:22:16

  Fabiola Lara

  I'm like, you're a wealth of knowledge. I'm sure. It's just like, you don't even know the advice that you have to share. And I think what you mentioned about just like getting into it for the right reasons is a huge, like underrated piece of advice because a lot people do go into it just because like they saw on Instagram that like, you know, this tattoo artist is poppin and they can do something similar, but like, is that really what you should be doing?

  00:39:22:16 - 00:39:43:01

  Fabiola Lara

  You know, there's a lot of questions there. So aside from your tattoo work, I know you've been developing your own body of paintings. I know right now you've been in your in your master's program. So I don't know how hands on you've been able to be with your paintings, but can you tell me a little bit about the influences for these paintings are like all around you right now.

  00:39:43:01 - 00:39:44:12

  Fabiola Lara

  I just want to know more about it.

  00:39:44:23 - 00:40:17:06

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, I have been getting back into painting, which has been really nice, especially because I didn't have a studio space the whole time that I was in school. So I just moved back into one. I just moved into the ceramics studio. So I'm like ready to hit the ground running and make a new body of work. Hopefully. And yeah, the paintings I've been making recently are sort of revisiting some earlier paintings that I made a number of years ago where I was painting parts of this one leather jacket that I have as if they were landmasses or landscapes.

  00:40:17:06 - 00:40:41:21

  Tamara Santibañez

  And so the paintings out of me now are kind of trying to revisit the idea of these leather landscapes, but also imagining what else could be inhabiting these landscapes, like what kind of flora and fauna might be in this land. And also thinking about architecture and geography. And if I'm imagining these landscapes as these sort of like utopian spaces and like what is between us and that space, like what's between the now and the then?

  00:40:41:21 - 00:41:09:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  What kinds of like cisterns or fences or walls are keeping us from accessing them? And so yeah, I've been reading more of those aspects into the paintings and thinking through them as I'm, as I'm painting, which is really fun. It's nice to be painting without, without a deadline or without an end goal in mind and, and just get to process the ideas I've been having in my holding my head the whole time that I've been in school.

  00:41:09:19 - 00:41:10:08

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yes.

  00:41:10:08 - 00:41:29:08

  Fabiola Lara

  The ideas I have been like percolating in there for a while just like re exploring them and finally putting them kind of to light, right? Like having them come into fruition. I Am so excited for this body of work that you're creating. I know that you've shared snippets of it and it's not like esthetically amazing looks so cool.

  00:41:29:15 - 00:41:53:12

  Fabiola Lara

  But even from a conceptual point of view, so sake I just love it. And can you tell me about like what you're using for these paintings? I know I've had listeners just like, want to get into a little bit more of like the nitty gritty of like creating, you know, people want to know like tools and processes and like, just like your process of conceptualizing maybe and then actually putting paint to canvas.

  00:41:53:29 - 00:42:15:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  Yeah, definitely. So I paint in oils and it's been really nice to have a studio space again for that reason because you can work on multiple paintings at a time and kind of like one wall. One thing is drawing work on another thing. And so that is most helpful to me to just have multiple things going at a time and being able to look at things together.

  00:42:15:16 - 00:42:38:18

  Tamara Santibañez

  And I paint mostly on canvas. When I was painting sort of the original landscape series, I was working from reference photos that I was taking. So is honestly a pretty direct like 1 to 1, like from the photo to the painting. And I would, I would look very closely at the photos while I was I was painting the renderings and now I'm sort of bringing in other things that don't have photo reference.

  00:42:38:18 - 00:42:58:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  So I'm actually using the iPad a lot. We're all making mockups of these paintings and be able to work in different layers and kind of see how different things might might work. But I will say that one thing I'm trying to get away from is with tattooing. You really you really have to know what's going to look like and you have to really have things like pretty exactly dialed in.

  00:42:58:10 - 00:43:22:19

  Tamara Santibañez

  So it's like having a really finished line drawing to show a client so they know what the tattooing is going to look like and staying true to that in the final execution. So there's not any like weird or unexpected surprises for anybody, but I'm trying to break that habit when it comes to my paintings because that's where so much of that experimentation and creative process happens is in trying things, not knowing what the result is going to be and knowing that it might not work.

  00:43:23:02 - 00:43:29:07

  Tamara Santibañez

  So it's a habit that I am trying to to break right now with painting.

  00:43:29:07 - 00:43:46:06

  Fabiola Lara

  So interesting. So interesting. Yeah. Because with tattooing it does. I'm assuming you use your iPad for tattooing to kind of get like the exact finish design and being able to show it to the client and now it's like, you know, a part of your process. So it's like innate for you to want to do that for your paintings.

  00:43:46:06 - 00:44:08:21

  Fabiola Lara

  But like you said, you lose kind of that like on the, like on the fly kind of spirit. Tamara, I just want to thank you one last time for being on the show and hanging out with me and talking to me about everything that you do. I want to ask you one last question, which is like, how can people support your art and your projects nowadays?

  00:44:08:21 - 00:44:15:11

  Fabiola Lara

  You have so much going on. So yeah, what's the best way to support Tamara right now?

  00:44:15:11 - 00:44:34:15

  Tamara Santibañez

  I think the best way is to either, like sign up for my personal newsletter on my website. Subscribing to my tattoo advice newsletter is really supportive if you want that in your inbox from Substack every week, yeah, you can buy my book, which is actually available today after not being available for some time. So it's like back on the shelves.

  00:44:34:15 - 00:44:37:09

  Tamara Santibañez

  You can get it today through Afterlife Press.

  00:44:37:09 - 00:45:13:16

  Fabiola Lara

  Back in stock, baby. Yes, amazing. Of course, I'll leave everything linked below so you can follow everything. Subscribe everywhere, purchase all the things. All right, Tamara, thank you so much. Okay, everyone, that's all I have for you today. For this episode, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tattoo artist, writer and oral historian Tamera Santibañez as their work is just so cool and interesting and I'm just so grateful that I had the chance to talk to them, please go ahead and check out their work over on Instagram to keep up with all their amazing projects and artwork.

  00:45:13:26 - 00:45:35:09

  Fabiola Lara

  Now, before you go, don't go yet. I just need to remind you. Subscribe to the show. Just hit, subscribe, hit, follow. Wherever you're listening. It really helps support the show. It's free and it helps me out. Keep making the show for you. If you want to connect with other Latine artists in our [Draws in Spanish communit]y, remember to head over to the new Patreon so you can join our Discord Channel.

  00:45:35:17 - 00:45:49:28

  Fabiola Lara

  Get extended episodes of every conversation, including this one and all that other good stuff. Okay, that's all I have for you. I'll see you next Tuesday with another episode. Bye bye, everyone.